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This discussion relates to Technology Review's article Battery Breakthrough?.

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Emosson

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01/22/2007 12:50 AM
EEStor hype

Unfortunately EEStor never made and will never make the supercapacitor described in the patent

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT7033406&id=cjx3AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=eestor#PPA3,M1)

because they ignore a well known physical effect, called “dielectric saturation”.

Barium titanate has been used in capacitors for decades, due to its high dielectric constant:

http://www.avxcorp.com/docs/techinfo/mlcmat.pdf

However, the dielectric constant drops as the electric field strength increases:

http://www.nap.edu/books/NI000488/html/49.html
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v71/i12/p890_1

At a hypothetical field of 3500 Volts over a thickness of 12.76 micrometers, as proposed in the patent, the dielectric constant of barium titanate would be orders of magnitude lower than the claimed 18500, reducing capacity and energy density by the same factor…

This has been discussed in more detail by Prof. Anatoly Moskalev on December 24th and 26th, 2006 in
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/index.php?p=43

with an update on January 20th, 2007:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=46
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- theBike45
  
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  01/22/2007 06:58 AM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  Well, on the one hand we have some professor claiming that some theory prevents EEStor from acomplishing what it says. On the other hand we have a real company apparently making real devices that apparently work as designed. I'll believe the guys actually working on the devices first, until they fail to produce what they say they they will. Theories and laws generally follow innovations to explain what happened.
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  - hamid
    
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    01/23/2007 03:17 PM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    AFAIK, EEStor has not built a capacitor with the characteristics required for an EV (3500 volt field with high capacity as claimed). They seem to only have produced the powder, but not a capacitor that can be subjected to the high field strengths.
    
    Can you provide a link to "apparently making real devices that apparently work as designed."?
    
    thanks
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    - newstemp1
      
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      11/18/2009 02:50 PM
      Re: EEStor hype
      
      Nov/16/2009 report: "EEStor has publicly indicated an objective of delivering functional technology to ZMC by the end of the calendar year," said Zenn spokesperson Catherine Scrimgeour. "ZMC is confident in their ability to meet that objective."
      
      "According to the EEStor enthusiast blog which follows the story very closely, a permit was issued in August to allow EEStor to expand at least into the 2800 square foot adjoining store."
      
      Oct/23/2009 report: "Priya L. Tabaddor, of UL's Global Energy Services, told Dennis [Lyle Dennis in allcarselectric.com] that they "have received a request to certify EEStor's product."
      
      It sounds as though we are about to find out what product they can initially deliver. Note that the properties of Barium titanate may not be the properties of the product that EEStor have in mind, even if it is in part related to Barium titanate.
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  - run
    
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    01/26/2007 10:53 PM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    Having read your words on more then one day I want to emphasize them:
    
    Theory is theory. It's never perfect, never what it says it is is. F NEVER EQUALED MA. The 'other' one might not be the best we can do either, but EVEN IF IT IS, it's NOT reality. It's just talk. Those who have to have things proven have faith in fantasy to begin with.
    
    Theory to accomplish things, not to discourage innovation. Not to spare brain cells. Smart people don't need 'principles' to understand what they closely observe. The brain has a nack at combining observations and phenonemon so often much better when not confused by generalities and analogy. But we differ widely in our ability to do that and no amount of silver spooned or coaching makes much of a difference despite so much progress in didactic theory.
    
    Those who teach need them. Those who don't need to teach don't.
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    - johnsawyercjs
      
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      02/11/2007 04:20 PM
      Re: EEStor hype
      
      run, that's an interesting collection of confusing, self-canceling platitudes, which could mean you're either trying to emphasize the benefits of theory, or the benefits of practical implementation, but we have no real way of telling from your post. "Those who have to have things proven have faith in fantasy to begin with"--what is that supposed to mean?
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      - Elroch
        
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        03/22/2007 06:17 AM
        Re: EEStor hype
        
        F does equal MA
        with an accuracy adequate for almost all purposes.
        
        Even quantum mechanics and general relativity merely produced new laws which make very small corrections to Newton except under at very high speed, very small scales or extremely powerful gravitational fields.
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  - wriskit
    
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    08/16/2008 02:38 PM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    Much research is trial and error. But theories provide an understanding of how accumulated successful results occur and provide a basis for further progress. Capacitance is well studied and the theories behind it are pretty solid. This allows researchers to avoid paths of inquiry unlikely to produce positive results. Capacitor systems can be useful adjuncts to battery-powered vehicles by replacing mechanical flywheel designs that have been built to recapture brake energy. Until EEstore demonstrates its capacitor system's ability to power a vehicle without a battery as well as a vehicle using a battery, scepticism is justified.
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- CJC_PE
  
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  01/22/2007 09:36 AM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  The EEStor patent indicates that the ceramic material that they are using is a doped barium-titanate covered by US patent 6078494 assigned to U.S. Phillips Corp. That patent claims that the material has a capacitance with a low voltage dependence. The patent does not quantify the voltage dependence. The accelerated life test was performed at 1800 V/mm. The EEStor patent indicates the selected ceramic formulation has a dielectric constant of 33500 before further modification.
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- wizwom
  
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  01/22/2007 04:44 PM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  The patent that I am sure they are using is 7144655, which is a hybrid DLC/LiIon Cell. That is, the charge is held partially in a chemical cell, and partly in a dielectric-separation. As I understand it, the charging cycle is a quick capacitance sequence, which then naturally trickles the charge to the Integrated Cell.
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- silvertrailer
  
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  01/24/2007 02:24 PM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  Break-through technologies only seem that way to non tech types,
  Technology evolves. For example every aspect of the apple iphone has been around for quite some time. So this ultracapacitor is hype like the anti-gravity Segway...remember that. I'd be happy to get ultracapacitors to run 4 LED lights : A project I have been working on for a decade. Since the storage of energy with Ucap's is macro molecular you aren't gonna get the energy density to power a motor but as motor starters well that been done since the invention of the electric motor and could use improvement in hardware, software and aplication finesse
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  - run
    
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    01/26/2007 10:38 PM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    what's the point of your project? For a grand you can buy a thousand LED flash controllers right now. Most camcorders still use incandescent though for VIDEO! MOST DVD players, and an incredible fraction of current models, can't handle standardardised common formats or anything other then pressed discs.
    
    Brush motors are for Kirby vacum cleaner types. A bike one just failed to get a quarter grand on ebay. Almost all energy products seem to be coming out of an anticompetetive market be they what most people use.
    
    The fact is that the 'phone' you speak of will suck at being used as a phone in comparison with what mobile phone users enjoyed a decade or two ago. SNL made fun of it on battery life. It will drop calls when plugged into the grid. It might sell some wireless routers "turning air into gold"; it will further destroy the conversations of those it infects.
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  - Techno Eng
    
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    08/18/2008 02:13 AM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    Looking for a cap to power 4 LED's?
    
    ComDial Telecom used a 3"dia x 4"lngth Cap in their Phone KSU's as a backup to operate the System for up to 12 hours duing Power Failure. It works beautifully. Sure, It has to be recharged.
    
    We have the X-43A Aircraft, Top speed: 7000 mph. Technology "grows." (I could say "RULES.) But I won't.
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- CapacitorMan
  
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  01/31/2007 02:13 PM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  Good point. As someone who has worked in this field for decades, there are several areas that have been overlooked, in addition to the dielectric saturation:
  1. The first, and greatest is the temperature coefficient on these kind of dielectrics, it drops 80% at the high temperature end,
  2. The voltage stress will be 3 times what is typically allowed.
  3. The failure mode for these types of capacitors is shorting, and that energy, if real, would release the equivalent of 100 sticks of dynamite.
  4. To make the capacitor using low cost electrodes means firing in reducing atmospheres, which this type BT can't take
  5. They cannot get the characteristics they claim with one micron grain size.
  6. They ignore the law of mixtures-when they mix the two glasses, they will drop the K dramatically.
  
  Just for fun, check out the "freedom car" initiative...the contributing universities and companies are not dummies. They rule BT dielectrics out mainly because of the energy possible, and the lack of a "benign failure mode".
  
  I wonder what they will accomplish with the next $2 million they are about to get. For the first set of funding, they came up with pure Barium Nitrate. Imaging what a good graduate program could do with that funding.
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  - kalexander
    
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    02/26/2007 07:03 PM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    Grad program?
    How many idiot PhDs would that produced, compared to competent ones?
    That's like saying state planning works better than free enterprise.
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  - DabRetroper
    
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    09/09/2007 04:23 PM
    Re: EEStor hype
    
    All technological knowledge and prowess aside, I am struck by how quickly those who consider themselves "in the know" rush to discredit or shout "impossible" at an idea simply because they have been unable to do it themselves.
    
    EEStor has thus far been quite secretive, presumably because they do not want their work duplicated, but admittedly possibly because the whole thing is bunk.
    
    However, without the benefit of the knowledge of what their solutions are to the problems so many of you bring up here, it is both asinine and inerudite to use words like "never," "cannot," "impossible," or "hype." The information simply doesn't exist to draw these conclusions.
    
    I'd expect better argumentative logic from a group of people allegedly so learned. How many great discoveries led to things we use on a daily basis that take advantage of an elegant solution to a problem that was "impossible" to solve? Let's be honest; most of you are immensely concerned that your own education and intellect are insufficient to solve the problem you see before you, which might well have been solved by someone else.
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    - CapacitorMan
      
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      10/24/2007 05:01 PM
      Re: EEStor hype
      
      I understand your point that we should not be a bunch of "nay-sayers". But what would you have those of us familiar with the technology do? Shut up and let the dreamers have a field day with no testing?
      
      This is not a new formulation, it is virtually identical to commercially available materials that behave very differently from the claims, just as others have said. The most recent patent is the third formulation that EEStor has come up with and claimed astounding properties. Do you wonder what happened to the first two?
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    - electronicsman
      
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      06/15/2008 08:36 PM
      Re: EEStor hype
      
      Caps have been around for a long time. Improvements came a long way. The one farad, the ten farad and so on came with new materials while theory still the same. When I graduated in 1973 with a graduate degree I thought I knew it all. It took many years after that for my development. Theory is just that, it does not conflict with inventions or new ideas. Degrees sometimes get in the way, but they are (if they are remmembered) helpful to explain things. Many times simple ideas can take the state of the art a long leap forward. Ideas should be explainable unless they are secret to protect the hard work and the amount of dollars spent to perfect them. To have an idea, prototype it, improve it, and get it to market is something professors, Ph.D.'s never got into it. It is hardwork, loving what you do, investigation, reading, looking up others work, and so on until a viable product is out meeting minimum specifications.
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      - electronicsman
        
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        06/15/2008 09:40 PM
        Re: EEStor hype
        
        We are discussing the new cap and the validity of claims made by EEStor. Some are trying to get EEStor to prove it, while others based on known physics rejecting it. The global view of this is to look at the application and where would fit an save humanity a lot of grief. Improvements come in small doses most of the time and if you hit the jackpot once in a life time it becomes unbelievable and most poeple are skeptical. Oher factors may play a major roll. For example, the Prius, a hybrid car been around for a while, until gas prices skyrocketted, it did not have that much share of the market, actually it left Detroit in the dust or it rendered all gas guzlers obsolete. The idea of combining gas, gearbox, electric motor/generator, battery technology together, a system, turnkey product. You may argue today one component, it may replace the battery in the Prius or other application. At the end it is the economics, the convenience and the acceptance by the user what is going to make the difference.
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- jiggys
  
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  04/17/2007 09:09 PM
  What I can Buy Today
  
  Today I can buy a 3000F,2.7V ultracapacitor from Maxwell with an energy density of 5-6 WH/kg. This is a mass produced product with extensive sales. JEOL in Japan says they have an improved nanocarbon ultracapacitor with an energy density of 50-75 WH/kg but I believe this still under development.
     The EESTOR patent claims 31F at 3500V in 336 lbs of about 342 Wh/kg but looks to be a long way from production, probably 3-5 years judging from the time EESTOR's competitors took.
     I personally think the 3500V is a red herring since a lower voltage at a bigger capacitance is more usefull for running motors etc and avoids additional weight of voltage conversion equipment.
     By the time EESTOR gets up to speed these other companies will probably be there too.
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  - CJC_PE
    
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    04/18/2007 09:48 AM
    Re: What I can Buy Today
    
    The higher voltage is the key to the EEStor approach to obtaining high energy density. Energy stored in a capacitor is proportional to the square of the charge voltage. Given two capacitors of the same capacitance value with one charged to one thousand times the voltage of the other, the one charged to the higher voltage contains one million times as much energy as the one charged to the lower voltage.
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    - jiggys
      
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      04/20/2007 12:58 AM
      Re: What I can Buy Today
      
      What counts is how much energy is stored. This is not necessarily a function of V squared, since we dont know how capacitance varies with voltage.
      EESTOR's 31F at 3500V capacitor energy is the same as one with 3100F at 350V.
      Based on some of the other comments on this board I think they will find 3500V is a tough nut to crack, and that a larger capacitance, lower voltage system is easier to develope.
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      - CJC_PE
        
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        04/20/2007 03:58 PM
        Re: What I can Buy Today
        
        The voltage rating may indeed turn out to be a tough nut to crack along with preventing the high voltage from reducing the relative permittivity. However, that is what EEStor has evidently selected as their target. The ceramic dielectric itself and the ways they are modifying the dielectric are components that are best suited to developing high voltage capability in a small package as opposed to developing high capacitance value.
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- ingocar
  
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  11/18/2007 03:23 PM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  Looks like they would be using doped barium-titanate, specifics unknownt to me. In any case, yuo are entitle not to invest in the company of course, even to feel jelous if they turn out to be right. But what I find obscene is tu acuse them of dishonestly so blumtly in public. They may be wrong and they may fail, but you are telling us that they are asking for money knowing they will fail because the wel known facts you point out.
  You wrote here as you are the smart one, the only one who knows, and that thee cann't even read. You will grow older, eventually.
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- nhsatguy
  
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  03/26/2008 07:44 PM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  I was impressed with the message posted by EMosson until I realized that it is referencing data from 1947. I realize the properties of physics are relatively constant, but the technology available to us today opens doors that simply weren't there 60 years ago. My understanding is that Ga. Tech recently announced success in improving the performance of Barium Titanate, which leads me to believe that Eestor may have something after all. My hope is tha they succeed.
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- simon2341
  
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  03/22/2009 09:20 PM
  Re: EEStor hype
  
  Business is a different from all kind of fields. As it requires talent and communication skills. So that people can be well attracted towards our products. Now people are well concentrating on businesses rather than doing jobs. As this is due to global economy crisis. So people who lost their jobs in this process can get suggestions from business forum. As it could well them with out facing any kind of risk.
  -------
  Simon
  
  Business Forums
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